Community Organizing for Socially Awkward People - Roderick Douglass (POY 66)

If you've checked the news lately, you've probably noticed that we're living in a socially chaotic time, to put it mildly. The word divided gets thrown around a lot to describe Americans, and it's true, we're in a cold civil war. Groups of us are at an impasse over our differences instead of solving issues that threaten all of us. So how do we get out of a situation like this? Historically speaking, it takes great leaders, people like community organizers. I talk with a prominent organizer who's written a book about this very thing. We'll talk about his experiences as an organizer, why he decided to write a book, and his advice for those of us who want to do more but don't know where to start. I'm Josh Morgan. That conversation is coming up next on the Plural of youf, the podcast about people helping people. I'm an applied sociologist and aspiring helper living in Huntsville, Alabama, and I'm on a mission to promote two beliefs in my life that humans are social beings, and because of that, we all benefit when we help one another. I publish this podcast on the 15th of every month to share how we can all be better helpers for those that we care about. If you haven't already, subscribe to the Plural Review wherever you get your podcasts and sign up for the monthly newsletter. The newsletter has media pics, occasional blog posts, news from previous guests, and stuff like that, so sign [email protected] Newsletter for now, put this episode on in the background and whatever you're doing and hope you enjoy the show. This month I'd like to introduce you to Roderick Douglas. He's a community organizer from Binghamton, New York, which is located in the southern part of the state near the Pennsylvania border. He's also the author of a new book titled Starting Community Organizing for Socially Awkward People who've had Roderick has been a community organizer in upstate New York since about 2010 or so. He and other organizers have been outspoken for years about social inequalities, race based killings by police, and other issues in the surrounding area. And according to him, officials in Binghamton now expect strong public responses to things like state sponsored violence and systemic failures, so these officials generally behave better than if people like him weren't organizing. This has made Roderick and others like him instrumental in preventing tragedies instead of acting only in response to them. Roderick has had several run ins with the law, including for protesting, and he talks about this in the book. Given the long history of violence against people like him in the US Especially people who are as Outspoken as he is, he fears that his life will eventually be cut short. I hope he'll be proven wrong about that. But regardless, he decided in 2024 to self publish Starting Somewhere to preserve and pass on what he's learned as an organizer. He's also packed it with stories and tips about topics that I've never seen presented together. Things like how to host a community event, how to design flyers, how to shoplift supplies, and why we should reject national politics for local issues. It's an honest start from nothing approach to how to disrupt norms and how to prepare for the consequences. And it's all related to community organizing and acts of resistance on top of that. Roderick is a gifted writer. He wrote the book in his voice and because he's fun to talk to, it's also fun to read. I hope you'll check out Starting Somewhere where you get books. But in the meantime, here's my conversation with Roderick Douglas, community organizer and author from Binghamton, New York.

I was just flipping through your book again, starting somewhere and I noticed myself like as I was skimming, I was seeing new bits of things that I was inspired by because I'm treating this like a college textbook where I have a pen and I'm like underlining things as I go along and just skimming through the book again, I was underlining things. So it made me just want to tell you and not to put you on the spot with a compliment, but you sound like a very wise person.

Yeah, that's a trick there because it's not true if you talk to any of my colleagues. But I do like to compile things, I like to consolidate things. And I think I listened to some very wise people and then I did what I do and I tried to consolidate that. So thank you for that. I appreciate that sentiment. But I assure you most of the wisdom in here I stole from other people.

Well, I guess that's true for any artist or creative type person. They pull inspiration from different places. So that makes sense since you explained it it that way. But yeah, I guess just to get started here, I'm curious, I mean, not only about why you wrote the book, but also what inspired you initially to get into this type of work that you do as a community organizer and an activist.

I think like most organizers, you're kind of just thrust into it by your circumstances. I mean, a lot of times you don't even have a choice as you're just like dealing with society, oppression, all of those things. Personally, for me, many years ago I used to do Music. I was a hip hop artist, and in my neighborhood, in my community in Albany, New York, I was pretty well known, and I knew how to get people to come out and come to shows. And I had a successful career as a, like a local underground rapper. And as the climate of the world intensified, and I'm talking about things from Amadou Diallo on, you know, to Trayvon and Mike Brown, and all those things started happening in the implementation of the Black Lives Matter movement and this kind of push towards racial justice, I was kind of thrust to the forefront in my community just because I was one of the people who could bring people out. And this impacted me personally. It was something that really bothered me, like, just seeing what was going on in our communities, especially the most vulnerable people who are impacted by state violence. So it started with my interest in what was happening and wanting to do something, feeling compelled to, and then people kind of looking to me like, what do we do? Because I was the guy who brought people out during the week and on the weekends, and they're like, we want to do something about this. So I kind of got thrust into it, and I got a crash course myself into organizing because my politics were questionable at best in the beginning. So. So that's what prompted me to get into community organizing. The book specifically, though, unfortunately, was prompted by some pretty tragic events. Personally, I sustained a pretty traumatic arrest in 2024, and I just kind of lost it a little bit, and I didn't know what to do. And it's kind of an act of desperation. I decided to kind of start compiling my thoughts on organizing and things that I thought would help people in the event something happened to me. And then a young boy by the name of Nyam Wei was murdered by the police not too far from where I am in Binghamton, N.Y. and the community reached out to me and other people because we were organizers and we sometimes community members look to us just to ask questions. What do we do? Something bad happened. What do we do? And I was kind of devastated by what happened to Nyamwe. But I wanted to make sure that there was some sort of reference for people to go to when they didn't know what to do when something did happen, so that we're not just asking questions in the height of a tragedy.

Wow. And it sounds like you got your confidence. I guess this is something I didn't realize reading through the book. You got your confidence as a public figure from being a musician and a hip hop artist. Pretty cool.

Yeah. I mean, I don't know, confidence probably isn't my strong suit, but it's something that does. That did come naturally to me. I've always been better at speaking to a large audience than individuals. I really don't like speaking to people one on one or small groups really. But I was always good at speaking to a crowd of people. And even with social media, it allowed me to speak to a crowd of people. And then with the book, it allowed me to speak to large groups of people. So music definitely helped me foster that, that skill. And it's something I try to apply to my organizing.

That's cool.

So you already mentioned a couple of causes that you advocate for. What sorts of things do you look for as a community organizer? Or does it. Is it more that issues come to you and then you address them as. As they kind of fall in your lap? Or are there specific things that you try to target?

Yeah, I mean, there's kind of two areas. There's the systemic issues that are just pervasive to any community that is dictated by where you live. So in a community I live in, for example, right now the housing crisis is pretty much the number one issue. We just have houselessness on the rise. There's an epidemic of drug use that's also associated with opioid addiction. That's also associated with the housing crisis. We have a boom in mass incarceration, which is associated to the housing crisis. So where I am, that's like the main issue that a lot of organizers rally around because it's tied to so many other issues from, from trans rights, queer rights to anti racism and onward. But then there's also the specific incidents that happen that spark a wave of uprisings. And then that would be usually tragic events like, like what happened to, you know, Sandra Bland, George Floyd and Breonna Taylor, all those people. And sometimes there's incidents locally like a death in the Broome county jail. That's where. That's where I am in Broome County. And those things will spark a wave of uprisings or just interest or engagement in. So I don't look for these things. They kind of happen or they're ongoing, but the community always dictates what we're going to respond to, how we're going to respond, but more importantly, how we're going to, like, build sustainable infrastructure so we don't have to respond so that we already have the mechanisms in place to mitigate these issues, but hopefully prevent them. Because the goal isn't to have like the best community response to tragedy. The goal is to Stop having these tragedies. And I think that's why when we're organizing from a point of, you know, mutual aid and sustainability and community defense and preparedness, like these are things to prevent tragedies from happening and make communities stronger all around. So we're not just always responding to something bad that occurred in our neighborhoods.

That was something I actually underlined as I was skimming through the book again, that you're trying to be proactive and not just reactive. Yes, but what is it? I assume you're. You're from upstate New York, right? Yes, originally.

Okay.

What is it about the upstate New York area, I guess, specifically Broome County, Binghamton, that facilitates community organizing? Because it sounds like there's an active scene there for this type of work.

My experience is that this. This type of work can happen anywhere. I mean, in upstate New York. And that's really. We consider that anywhere that's not in New York City. You know, there are these smaller communities that, in my opinion, makes it not just easier to organize, it makes it more practical, because you're now in a manageable realm. Okay. When you're in New York City, I mean, you're dealing with millions and millions and millions of people, it's hard sometimes to be heard, to make change, to even know what's going on. But when you're in a smaller community, you really have a power to make a change. Even a small handful of individuals can make a change. I've seen this across upstate New York. I'm originally from Albany. That's where I started organizing. But I've seen it in Syracuse and Rochester and Buffalo and Binghamton and Utica and Cortland. You know, all of these communities have the potential for this, and many of them already are organizing at a high level. Broome county, especially in the last 10 years, has really elevated the organizing scene locally. I think we've gotten a reputation for being good at mobilizing. And that does two things. One, it causes other neighboring communities to reach out to us for assistance or guidance or support, which is great. But we want to make sure the other communities also have this infrastructure in place so that they already know what to do. The other thing it does is it helps protect our community because we have a relatively strong community, and the police here know that. The mayor knows that. They know that when something happens, they're going to have to deal with us. I think that's part of the reason that some of these tragedies, like what we saw with Nyam Way and Tamir Rice and These things that happen all over the country and New York, we like to think that part of the reason that we haven't seen that exact manifestation in Broome county is because they just don't want to deal with us because they know if something were to happen to a 12 year old, 13 year old child in Broome county, killed by the police like we saw in Utica with NYAM way, our community would respond, you know, quickly and pretty ferociously because we have this infrastructure in place and that, that is a good way to keep the state violence at bay or at least try and keep these institutions on a leash because they know the community is strong and the community will respond. So we just want to make sure that we always have that presence and that ability to mobilize and organize so that we can really stop these, as I mentioned before, these, these tragedies from happening.

Yeah, not a lot of communities have that.

For example, I'm currently in northern Alabama.

There's not a lot of community coalescence around here. Part of that's because of the infrastructure also. I guess a lot of that's tied up in religious institutions where people go there instead of secular form of community. So I guess the reason I say all that is because it sounds like you're pretty fortunate to have that type.

Of setting to be able to fall.

Back on, you know, Absolutely. But. But I do think that a lot of communities have this potential and it's just something we have to work around and like tap into. There's a reason that my book starts pretty early on with the chapter on looking for other people to work with, because I have been to communities in upstate New York that have no infrastructure similar to it sounds like what you're describing. In certain places in Alabama, sometimes it really just takes someone starting it because it's unlikely that you're alone in having these opinions. So if you can find people who think like you and who are concerned and share these concerns. Right. And these societal issues, they want to address them and you can get that ball rolling. Once it gets rolling, it's kind of hard to stop. So I do think that we do have some privileges in New York, but we also have some obstacles that are unique to New York. For example, it snows here and organizing like. Right. That's a tough thing to organize around. I think wherever you are, there is this potential for this. You just have to kind of put in a little work and take the initiative to find the people who are willing to work and then just start small, you know, start by having A, you know, book club or community meeting or a community meal. You know, it doesn't, it doesn't have to start with this grand, like, radical, revolutionary theory. It can just start with people getting together. Because right now our society does a great job of keeping people apart. And we know what happens when people come together and they have time to break bread and think and process what's going on and strategize. Amazing things come of that because there are small communities, if you look at, like Ferguson, for example. Right. It's a very small community. But they were galvanized and mobilized incredibly in response to tragedy. And there's that potential everywhere, I believe, in this country and even the world. So I hope that people who might be discouraged by the prospect of organizing could maybe find some confidence using the book or just asking around, talking to other people in their neighborhoods.

Yeah. So you mentioned Nyam Wei, and I believe you said that he was sort of the catalyst, like his death was the catalyst for writing the book. I was just wondering, is it something like you had an idea for a while and then you decided with that event to proceed on the book?

I mean, yes, I had had the idea for a while and I had so many notes and resources and things I had scribbled down over the years. But when was killed, I kind of kicked things into high gear because it was obvious to me that Trump was going to win the next election. I mean, it should have been obvious to everyone, I think. But I figured if I were to write the book now, there would be more of an interest in it than if it had come out during a Democratic administration. Right. Not that I think Democratic administration is better, but I figured now's the time to write it because people may care more in January and hopefully this information could get to more people. So Nya's death definitely kicked things into high gear for me. And then also the impending Trump administration gave me a solid deadline because I knew for a fact I wanted the book to come out in January when Trump took office.

Right. It's funny to me, as I was reading the book, I noticed in some sections you had language about Kamala Harris and the circumstances around the election in November. But then you published the book in January, so that's like a two month turnaround time. How did you do that?

Yeah, I really wanted to do that, actually, because I knew when the book was coming out. This is one of the great things about self publishing. I had total control over the product when it came out. So I had written parts of the book and I wanted to put specifics about the election, so I already knew the results. So I just kind of wrote it as if Trump won. And then I just waited for the numbers to come out and I just plugged them in, basically.

I see.

You know, any other details I wanted to add? I was able to do that because when you're self publishing, you really have pretty much total control about the content up until the minute it comes out. Even after it comes out, you can tweak things. But yeah, I'm glad you noticed that because I really wanted the content to be very current, very, very up to date and include the results of that election. So I made sure that the book was written and edited right around the time the election happened. And then I, I just plugged in the last minute information in December and I think I hit publish sometime around Christmas, probably the week before Christmas, and set it for a January 1st release. So that was how it was able to be so current.

Gotcha. Now, you mentioned self publishing.

What's that process like?

Because that's your first book too.

This is my first book. So when I started this, I knew nothing about self publishing. And it's actually interesting. I'm at, I'm at an impasse now because the book came out and I'm kind of on a book tour now and I'm going around the country talking about the book and I would, I'd almost rather talk about self publishing. Like, I reached out to my local library and I was like, could I teach a class on self publishing? Because I learned, I learned so much.

I can imagine.

Yeah, I just feel like more people should be self publishing. And I think I figured out like a pretty good way to do it, you know, while I was doing it. And I wanted, I wanted people to kind of know my process because it did work for me. And I found some ways to bypass some of the challenges and hurdles and even break even financially, which is very hard to do when you're self publishing. But I found some ways to get past that and I want to share that information because I think it's even more valuable than the information in the book, potentially. Because if more people have a means to publish this work, that's more reference, we have more material, we can look into more ways to tell our stories and maintain our stories. So, yeah, I knew nothing about it when I started, but I always tell people, if you're, if you want to write a book, the first step is to write the book. Worry about the publishing later. Like, you can find that out in Fact, you can even email me if you have questions and a few people have. But just write the book first. Write the book. Don't get distracted with the COVID or where you're publishing, how you're publishing all that stuff. Write the book.

That's good advice.

And if you ever put out like a, like a course or a webinar or something on that, I'd be happy to share it because that's, that would be really good information for a lot of people to have.

Definitely. I'll keep you posted on that because I really want to do that. And like I said, I've been hounding my library about it because I don't really want to do any more book reading events in Broome County. I really want to just show people how to self publish. It's actually really interesting and fascinating and I was surprised at how affordable it was. I thought putting out a book was going to be more expensive. You don't make any money really, but it really doesn't cost too much money either. So uniquely accessible, I think, to be able to put out a book in this day and age and sell it across platforms. Even if you're not making much money, you can still get it out there in the hands of people. So yeah, I'll definitely keep you posted on that.

Cool.

What's the response been to the book so far?

I've noticed nobody likes it, everyone hates it.

Well, I guess I asked because I see you posting on social media and reposting where people have shared. Like I see people posting pictures of the book with their pets, that kind of thing. So I guess that was a bit of a leading question because it does seem like the response has been really great.

The response has been overwhelming, literally overwhelming at times. I was even frustrated at one point because I just wasn't prepared for the response. But yeah, I mean, it's very humbling to hear people say how the content has helped them personally and also politically and organizationally. I mean, you know, when I, when I wrote the book, my original goal for 2025 was to sell a thousand books. And I was basing that on my experience as a hip hop artist right when I was a rapper and I could sell a thousand albums in a year. So I thought I'm going to try to sell a thousand books. But I also had to challenge that. I wanted to make the book for free. You know, I want to make it available for free. So I put the book on the website and people could get the PDF or the E book for free. But it was I was still selling it across, you know, major retailers online. But anyway, I sold a thousand books in the first month and I really wasn't prepared for that. And now I'm almost at 3,000 book sales and I don't even, it's, I mean, was it April? I mean, usually when a first time author comes out, if they sell 250 books, you know, 300 books, they're lucky. So I've been really overwhelmed by that. I mean, that's not a life changing number of books, but 3,000 books is, you know, is a lot. And that doesn't even count all the people who've just been sharing the PDF, sharing the e book, sharing the audiobook, you know, so the response has been overwhelming and humbling and I really appreciate the people who take the time to like write the reviews and share it because I genuinely believe that there are things in here that have helped not just my life, but my community. And I want that to be shared. You know, I don't really care. You know, some people think it's an ego driven thing, but I wrote it kind of thinking I might not be around for long. Let me get this information out there. So the fact that people are taking it and sharing it has really been rewarding for me. But hopefully for these individuals in the communities that they're in.

Something we haven't talked about yet is, and I actually bookmarked this quote, I've learned that breaking rules is the only way to get ahead. You cover a lot of different tactics in the book for breaking rules. For example, the section on shoplifting or the section on lying to your employers, lying to your landlords. I mean, those are all things that I thought it was fine for other people to do, but not necessarily for me. And I don't know where that came from, I guess my upbringing or just how I've been socialized. But since reading that, that's radicalized me a little bit.

And not that I'm going to go.

Out and shoplift every time I go.

To a store or lie to everybody.

I know that kind of thing. But it's a different way of thinking in that you're right that sometimes the only way we can get ahead in life is to bend the rules.

Absolutely. You know, and that's, that was important to me when I, when I put this together because I think sometimes you just have to pop the bubble. Right. Like we have this, this mentality that we've been indoctrinated into living in a capitalist society, a Western imperialist society where we follow rules all the time. And they champion things like the Boston Tea Party or, you know, when it. Whenever historically there's been acts of resistance, they champion it. But then at the same time, they tell us never to do it. From the bus boycotts to marching in Selma and all these things. The Watts riots. Right. All these moments in history. The Stonewall. These are all things that we look back on and we're like, wow, these were great things. But then at the same time, society says, never do them again.

That's a good point.

I wanted to write these little anecdotes about breaking rules to normalize it. But also some people just need permission, you know, like, they just need to see it written down and they're like, hey, it's okay to shoplift. You know, it's okay to subvert capitalism. That's what we're doing. Just like if you, you know, when slavery was going on, it was a rule breaking to leave, right. To run away, right?

Yes.

That's breaking the rules. And some people were against it. They said, it's too risky. We shouldn't break this rule. And other people said, look, I gotta break this rule because this horrible thing is going on. And that's just how I want us to look at capitalism, the same way we would look at slavery or the Holocaust. And like, Anne Fr Was breaking rules, Right. So we need to break rules because we're not going to get past these oppressive institutions, institutions and these oppressive regimes if we're just following all the rules that they set forth for us. So shoplifting was just kind of an easy way for me to pop that bubble for people and shake them out of this complacency where we think that we have to just go along with all of society's rules and norms just because they tell us to. It's also just fun and a hobby of mine. So I thought I'd throw it in there, inspire people.

Nice. I appreciate that. I was wondering, is there a moment or something that you've been a part of in your career that you're most proud of? Like, where do you feel like you made a difference?

For me, it's definitely youth engagement. And again, this was before I started politically, community organizing. I used to run a youth program where we taught kids how to rap and record music and write music. Write lyrics. Right. It was called Fly. Right. And I just saw kids change over the course of a semester with relatively little time, just a little attention and care and genuine interest in what they were doing and being engaged by adults who really cared about them. And I saw how it could change children's lives pretty quickly. And I was like, this is what I needed when I was a kid. And I feel like it's the most bang for your buck as a community organizer. There's that quote from Frederick Douglass. It's easier to raise strong children than change broken men or something like that. And it's so true. You know, you invest in children and you're going to change the world. And I think that whenever we're doing community organizing, if we're not including young people, and I mean from childcare free childcare on to just youth engagement and just making the spaces accessible to young people, we're missing a big opportunity there because young people have ideas, but they also have the most at stake. They have the most at risk. Right. Because they're going to be here longer than us.

Sure.

So a lot of what we're organizing for, most of it is really for them. So I just think they have to be included at every level. And I would say all the organizing I do now, I see it through the eyes of my children and how we're leaving this behind to them. So I would say youth engagement, but specifically that group I did with Fly. Right. And then some other things I've done after that. Just really, really rewarding. And I think probably the most important work of my life.

That's awesome. I'm really happy that you're able to reflect back on that and see that you have made a difference. That's really cool. One of the questions I sent you, I phrased it as if somebody wants to get involved in the kind of work that you do, where can they start? But in the book, you make a point to distinguish, and I've heard this from other people as well, you don't necessarily want to start something new if the work is already being done. So if somebody wants to get involved in the kind of work you're doing, where would you recommend they, I guess, start to look for the work that's already going on or maybe even start their own community organizing efforts if that work isn't being done?

Yeah, I have a whole chapter on this. And a lot of times it really comes back to art and your hobbies. I mean, the goal is to find people who think like you. Right. So if you're going places and you. Or interacting with people who have shared common values and interests and this could be your workplace, it could be a gaming community. You know, I have a. I have a gig booked in Brooklyn in a few weeks. And it's this mutual aid initiative called Flatbush Mixtape. And they started as like it was a mutual aid initiative, slash, gaming community and also music. So it's like it kind of came from that. So I think you should look around for people who have common interests as you. A lot of times there may not be an event for a protest or community meeting, but there may be an event for an art gallery or something like that, or book club. Lots of book clubs have been put on my radar recently since writing a book. And I never really went to book clubs before, but now I'm participating in them because they're reading my book. But you can find these people through their hobbies and interests. And if, if you get to a point where you feel like there really aren't people who are organizing yet, even if there's interest in the community, only then should you endeavor to start something. And I think people should just be careful about making sure there's not already something existing in the community. But if you do decide to start something, you first you gotta find a few people who want to do that as well. And a good way to do that is just kind of reaching out to folks looking at past events. You can go on social media, look at past events that have occurred that are of interest to you and see who went, see who attended, hit them up, say, hey, do you want to get a coffee sometime? I mean, it sounds cliche, but sometimes it's just about taking that first step to engage with people and then see what you can build from it.

Yeah, because I guess the idea is you don't want to duplicate effort because you may not compete with these other people, but you will be working in different silos.

Yeah, yeah. And then the whole point is to build community. Absolutely. You don't want, you definitely don't want to duplicate effort. You don't want to step on toes either, but you want to make it easier for yourself. Also, why would you start from the beginning if somebody already has something going that you can contribute to? And my experience is when something is already going and somebody else comes into the space and they have something to offer, it doesn't slow things down. It usually kicks things up. You know, you have new blood, you have new enthusiasm, you have new experiences to bring into it. Even if a really well seasoned organizer comes into a space that's relatively new, they can bolster that space rather than starting their own thing. So I definitely encourage people to just kind of look around your communities, reach out to people, see what's already going on see what has gone on in the past and see how you can build from that rather than reinventing the wheel.

That's great. I appreciate you sharing that. That's all good advice. So speaking of good advice, you share a lot of that online and I'm wondering if people would want to follow you. Where would be the best place to do that?

You know, I think if you go to truthispublishing.com I believe my social media pages are there. You know, I've been a lot less active lately just, just dealing with my own mental health issues and also the extra attention that comes with the book coming out and things. So it's all I can imagine. Yeah, yeah, it's. You know, I knew that was going to happen when I wrote the book, that I was gonna. There was gonna be this like backlash and just like weird people messaging me and stuff. So I'm a little less active now. But even in the book I mentioned this, you know, social media, I believe is very temporary. We're enjoying it now, but every day our rights are getting stripped away and we already know that the first thing that they'll shut down whenever we start organizing at any high level will be, you know, our social media. Look what just happened with the signal chat, you know, thing. I mean, Facebook has shut down messenger before. WhatsApp is owned by Facebook. And now, you know, all of these things are really, you know, one switch away from being the plug being pulled out on us. So, you know, it's great. If people want to follow me on social Media, go to trutherspublishing.com you can follow any of my Instagram or Facebook for now. But I definitely encourage people to kind of find other ways to engage with folks. Get walkie talkies, get two way radios, know where your neighbors live. Because at any moment social media may just stop existing and we're have to figure it out.

Yeah, that's good advice too. I assume truth is, publishing would be the best place to buy the book. Starting somewhere?

Yeah, I just have a bunch of links to places that people can buy it. You can go there. There's, I think Barnes and Noble, unfortunately, Amazon, some of those places. But if you see it in a store, you have my permission to steal it. And if you need a free copy, shoot me an email and I'll just send you a free copy. I've emailed out over a thousand copies of the ebook in the PDF and even the audiobook. Just the people who've asked, you know, I really want the information out there so Please don't let cost be a factor in whether or not you can access it.

What is Your email address?

Roderickstruthgmail.com and that's also available at Truth Is Publishing. It's right at the bottom.

Got it. Okay, as we wind down here, is there anything you wanted to talk about that I haven't asked you yet?

Oh, wow. Nobody. Oh, wow. Nobody's asked me this. I've done a couple, like, you know, interviews and things since the book came.

Out, and nobody want more about self publishing.

Yeah, right. You know, it's funny, I feel like the. My goal when I started writing the book was to keep it accessible. I wanted it short, I wanted it concise, I wanted it accessible. And someone asked me recently, was there anything in the book that you know, as you're reading it, you wish you had added? And I keep coming up with more shoplifting tips. I was thinking the other day, I'm like, I wanted to. I should have put in there. Never steal liquor. It's just. It's not worth it. You're going to get caught. Like.

Yeah, but it sounds like you speak from experience.

No, no, no. I just. Thankfully, no, because I just realized it's like one of the most coveted things in this country. It's like, it's not worth it. Steal other stuff, pay for your liquor. But. But no, I. All I would say to people is if there's anything that you find in this book that you, You. You deem helpful or you think it can help other people share it, pilot it, plagiarize it. I don't care if you say you wrote it. I think what's more important to me is that we are getting prepared as best we can as communities and as a nation. Because I think everyone kind of sees the writing on the wall. This only ends one way. Either climate change or revolution. It's gonna happen, and it's probably gonna happen in the relatively near future, if not our lifetime, the next generation. Right? So this is the time. This is go time. We really need to prepare. So if there's anything that you find in here that you think is worthy or you think it's helpful, please share it with complete abandon. And don't worry about credit or anything like that. Just get the information out there and take the first step. You want to be the kid in the class that raises their hand first and asks the question that gets everyone else asking questions. If you got to be that person, be that person. Because if we wait for other people, it's just not going to happen. So that's all.

I appreciate you sharing that and I appreciate your time today. You're a super inspiring person. This book is going to mean a lot to me for years to come. Just like I said at the beginning, because there's a lot of wisdom in here and I glad you took the time to write it. So I just want to say thank you.

Thank you so much, Josh. I really appreciate your time as well. And yeah, if you have any other questions or insights, even, just reach out anytime. Thank you.

This is the Plural View. I'm Josh Morgan. If you like this episode, please sign up for the Podcast monthly [email protected] newsletter I put a lot of work into it, so I think you'll enjoy it. That's all for now. Thank you for being kind today.

Take care.