How to Pick a Lane As a Helper—And Stay In It - Laura Hale 2 (POY 62)

In case you missed the last episode of the Plural of you, I spoke about the nature of helping for the 10th anniversary of this podcast. In this episode, we'll continue exploring that topic with our first ever returning guest. We'll cover how to take care of yourself so that you can better help others, share some lessons about helping from the last few years, and wrap up with how you can hold on to hope in dark times. I'm Josh Morgan. That conversation is coming up next on the Plural of youf, the podcast about people helping people. I'm an applied sociologist and aspiring helper living in Huntsville, Alabama. I'm on a mission to promote two beliefs in my life that humans are social beings and that we all benefit when we help one another. So I publish this podcast on the 15th of every month to share how we can all be better helpers for those that we care about. If you haven't already, subscribe to the Plural of youf wherever you get your podcasts and sign up for the monthly [email protected] Newsletter for now, put this episode on in the background of whatever you're doing and enjoy the show. This month, I'd like to reintroduce you to Laura Hale. She's the founder and president of the One Good Deed Fund in Burlington, Vermont. It's a nonprofit organization that gives microgrants, most for $100 or less in Burlington's Old North End neighborhood. One Laura was on episode 17 of the podcast several years ago and talked with me back then about her work, and she's one of the most helpful people I've ever crossed paths with, and we've kept in touch since then. So I invited her back to talk about what she's learned in her life about helping others. She's super wise and knowledgeable about meeting people where they are, and I think you'll get a sense for that over the next few minutes. I hope this will help you as you consider how you'd like to make a difference out there, because I know it's already helped me. So here's my conversation with Laura Hale, founder and President of the One Good Deed Fund. So yeah, I thought we could have a conversation about picking a lane when it comes to helping others and how do you determine what causes to get involved with, you know, that kind of thing, which I know is a broad topic, and I was just wondering, like, do you know when you first wanted to start helping people? Like, was there a moment when you realized you wanted to get involved in something bigger than yourself?

It's a good Question and one I don't really have a succinct answer for the last couple years. I think especially having seen all the mutual aid movements come out and then the backlash to them. And I think being in my mid-40s, I'm old enough to have seen now societal movements come and the backlash and they try again and the backlash. And it's a perspective that is, I don't know, I guess in some ways helpful. But also you recognize that progress isn't always progress.

It's not forward moving and linear like we like to imagine.

Sometimes when you talk about helping and change, it's such a broad topic, it's really difficult to know how you measure change and how you actually experience it. And are the times when you have two years of people talking about what systems do to people? Is having that understanding, even if there's a backlash, worth it? I mean, I say yes, but you can't just measure it in progress as in we all started understand marginalization and intersecting identities from all these communities and then the next thing that comes out is identity politics is ruining the country. Right. But it doesn't diminish the fact that a lot of people learned that those were problems for the first time. I've learned a lot in the last couple years about how people think and feel in ways I had not before. And a lot of it is learning, learning that not everyone's wired like I am. I think one of the most difficult things to understand is that most people do not physically feel pain when they know someone else is in pain. I swear, it has been the most baffling and yet enlightening thing to me, finding out that the majority of people can just find out that someone is suffering and be sad that they're feeling pain, but they can just go on with their day. They have no consequence of themselves. They don't. They don't internalize it, they don't feel it, they don't feel an urgency to change it. I feel other people's pain as if it's my own.

Right.

It is just as urgent for me to help someone else as it would be for me to help myself. I mean, there's some differentiation, but not much. Yeah, and it's always been like that for me. And I guess I just did not know until maybe last year that that was different for other people. I just assumed that maybe there was something deficient in me that I couldn't turn it off. And everyone else had developed this great skill set. You know, there's like this 60, 40 where 60% of the population has, like, empathy levels that are kind of just, you know, they don't like the bad things are happening to other people, but they can live with it. Then there's 20% of people who have low empathy, who don't even really understand that there's a problem. And then there's the group that I'm in, which is the people who have, like. I'm just going to say too much empathy, because that's how it feels to me. Like, you know, to the point that it disrupts your life.

Overly empathic, maybe.

Yeah, yeah. Or just, you know, we don't have an off switch.

Yeah.

We're taking in other people's experiences in pain. You know, as soon as I hear that someone's going through something, my first question is, my God, what is that like for them? It's wonderful in that it makes me very attuned to problems with systems, but it's also really hard to manage my own burnout. You know, carrying other people's stories is really hard, and I do a lot of it. But it's. You know, I was listening to. It's probably NPR or something. I don't really know. But there was a. They were interviewing a politician somewhere in the Southeast, I can't remember, but it was someone who I think was a state rep talking about the disagreement he was having with a governor. And he was saying, you know, the difference is that the governor believes that the state should be providing for the basic needs of our citizens. And I fundamentally disagree. I'd never heard it before. I'd never. I'd never heard someone just flat out say that. That's not the role.

Right. Yeah.

Our society's role is not to make sure that the people who are most vulnerable have their needs met. It was simply a vehicle so that he was able to live his life the way he wanted, gathering as many things as he wanted. And I just honestly did not know that's what someone thought.

Yeah. And I think for people like you and me, it's like, well, what else is society for?

Yeah. It literally stopped me in my tracks because I think this whole time, my whole life, I've been looking for the right combination of words to make other people understand why it matters that other people die on our streets. And I always figured if they just knew, if I could just tell the story in a way that they could hear, that it would unlock something in them and they'd want to do more. And then to hear it so clearly uttered that it wasn't that he didn't understand the problem. It was that he fundamentally disagreed that it needed to be solved.

Yeah. That's what we're up against.

Right. I thought it was a deficit of information, and it was not. It's never been a deficit of information. Right. It's a deficit of empathy.

Wow. It's really profound to hear you say it that way.

Yeah. I mean, it's hard. I try. I spend so much time trying to figure out how to communicate better with people so that they feel heard and understood and I can get their perspective and meet them someplace. You know, I don't need to agree with everyone. I don't mind disagreeing with people. But to realize that there are so many people that just fundamentally think that somewhere, somehow people who have less than they do made a bad choice or had some sort of moral failing. I don't know how you get past that, because they have no evidence for it. It's just a feeling.

Yes.

It is just this. It's. It's the air we breathe that if you are in need, you have some sort of failing, and thus there's a power imbalance there that will never go away.

Yeah. And at this point, it's so ingrained in the culture of our country.

Yeah.

It's like we've got to work past generations of that education.

Yeah. And I don't know how you do it. I mean.

Yeah.

And then sometimes I get stuck in these existential crises, and then I have to think I can't fix everyone. Right. Like, I can't even influence it. And then I have to go back to. I mean, and I think this is what you were asking. How do you choose the thing that you work on? And I get caught up in these big questions. And my alarm at seeing, you know, in my community Here we have $10 million houses on the lake that are maybe a quarter mile from seniors, using breathing equipment, living in a tent. And the big question is, how do we not see the people in the tents? Not how do we house the people in tents?

Exactly.

I don't even know what I do or what I can do when that's the dialogue, when it's. It's not. The problem isn't that our society has so fundamentally crumbled that we have vulnerable seniors living in tents. The problem is that they are camping too close to the rich houses. Right. So I can't fix that. If I spend all of my time zoomed out to that level. I am so exhausted and full of despair that I can't do anything. It's not that I don't need to see that picture, because I think it's important for all of us, especially those of us that work on a more granular level, to understand that the systems we're pushing against are fundamentally designed to create the circumstances we're in.

Yes, I agree.

And that's why I do things like I run political campaigns for candidates who have lived experience with the stuff that needs to be fixed. I help communications efforts. I speak publicly. I do all these things to try to help with those, you know, further up the chain efforts. But that's not what I do best. Right. I can do those things, and I will do those things. But those things are exhausting to me.

Yes.

They don't fill any cup that I have. They just feel like something that's very important to do, and I have the skillset to do them. But I have a lot of friends who are in the social work world, which doesn't.

I can imagine. Yeah.

Doesn't surprise anyone at all. Right. I think people are surprised I'm not in the social work world. But a friend of mine was saying that one of the things she tells her interns when they start working with her organization is you can't light yourself on fire to warm other people up.

Yep, I've heard that.

And I sat there, like, looking at her, knowing full well that she was absolutely right, and then sitting there saying, God, I do that all the time. I do it all the time.

Yeah, I can imagine.

And one of the reasons I started the One Good Deed Fund was to have a vessel for all the things that I could do to funnel through so that there were some guardrails on there. I also know that one of my skill sets is fundraising. You know, I wish I had the skill set of being a, I don't know, a really great politician or something like that. You know, maybe I could make a difference there, but I don't.

Yeah, same here. I don't have the charisma for it, but I could see how it could be so impactful.

Right. I just don't care about publicity. You know, for me, that I did have to really think through what are the things that are not difficult for me. Right. And I think this is where. When I. When people ask me how they can get involved, I ask them to think about the things that they enjoy doing, like, what are the things that are not a heavy lift for you to do. I really encourage people to look at what they do. Well, that is not deeply taxing for them, because if you're involved in something that is really emotionally resonant for you and you feel the problem acutely, that's already going to draw you down. So pick the things you want to get involved in by what your natural skill set is and what your interests are. Don't try to force yourself into, like, don't go, don't go knock door to door if you're a massive introvert and the idea of talking to a stranger makes you want to vomit, like, just don't do that to yourself. It doesn't need to be any harder than an artist. Right. There's a piece for all of us in this work. It's so interesting when I see people who are. They want to get involved in some campaign or movement and they're pushing themselves far outside of their skillset because they think, well, that's what needs to be done. So I'm going to do it. I'm like, oh, baby, no, no, no, no. Do what you want.

That's a good point.

Yeah. I mean, honestly, like, I can't tell you the number of people that I have worked with on, like, funding reforms and things like that who were just. They're very passionate about making sure people are educated about what, you know, what government actually costs. But they'll be like, well, I'll go speak at the city council meeting or something. And then they're horrible. Don't use something that is already highly stressful as an attempt to also grow your personal skills. Right. Like, pick one. Grow your skills in the low stakes situation, friends. But yeah, I really, like, I know that I do the one good deed fund because I'm very good at developing relationships with people who are service providers. You know, just, I like people.

And that's something that you've had to cultivate, I'm sure.

Yeah, it is. I did not grow up raised by people who thought that the world was a good place. Right. I was raised by people who were suspicious of the world.

Um, I see.

You know, and it wasn't always great. And I certainly saw a lot of bad stuff growing up. So I didn't grow up thinking that the world was a place to embrace either. I thought the world that was a place that was gonna, you know, beat you up and spit you out. And for a long time I was right. That's exactly what the world was. But it was, you know, I think a piece of this is finding your own peace and your own surroundings. Like, if you have your own, it doesn't even need to be like your own home. But like, if you have a place of peace and solace that isn't taking everything out of you, then you have more space to participate in things that give to others.

Makes sense.

Yeah, yeah. Like if I'm in. And I say this to people too, like if you're in a terrible place physically, emotionally in your life, whatever, you don't have to then also say, I'm going to be part of a social movement. Like, baby, no. Fix your own stuff. Take time.

Yeah, that's something I recommended. I. I did an audio essay in the last episode of this podcast where I just talked about the general nature of helping others and like, taking care of yourself first. That's step one, because it's, it's almost like having a place of privilege to be able to help someone else.

Yeah. I think so many people in this country are in survival mode.

Yes.

You know, I'm looking into the elder care system in my family for the first time and unraveling Medicare and unraveling long term facility care, and I'm like, my God, we have incentivized people to spend down so they have zero resource and then get warehoused someplace and take antipsychotics. They're compliant, right?

Like, yeah.

Yep, that's. And because we put little dollar signs on top of people's head when it comes to health care and social services. And it doesn't matter who is in these systems, right? It doesn't matter who the person being warehoused is. It doesn't matter who the person doing nursing care is. You're not individual bad people. It is a system that is designed to churn. Right. You know, to make someone compliant and hopefully they're comfortable, but mostly they're easy. And that's all of our systems.

Yes.

We reward people for being compliant and easy. And that means that all of the true messiness of someone, all of the things that could actually help their lives are taken away from them if they're at all difficult. And I don't even know what to say about that because it's so horrifying to me that we have people who are kicked off the already really terrible benefits that we have because they miss a meeting, Right. Because they miss an appointment, you know, because they have a cell phone number that changed because it was prepaid. And the belief is you were just being difficult.

Right.

And so when I look at what I can do, which is to hear that and say, you know, this is where the empathy come in, I can look at their life and say, you know, that's not someone being disrespectful to you. That's someone who is living an extremely chaotic life and does not have the means or resources to fit into the way you're asking them to live. That's not anything having to do with you. Like, I need you to depersonalize what this is because it has nothing to do with you.

Right.

But it's. You know, I'm able to do that because I do have quiet. Right. Because I do have stability, and I certainly didn't always. And it's taken me a lot of work to get here. But that's why I'm much more effective at helping other people now than I would have been in my 20s when I was just grappling to try to. Just kept my head above water. You know, those things that I've lived through that give me insight into how other people live are the very things that made me completely unable to be effective at helping other people. Right. I needed help.

Yeah. That's a really important point. And I think it goes back to what I was trying to get to before, is that it's so important to have a place to ground yourself before you go trying to figure out how to help someone else ground themselves.

Yeah. You know, I think we do a lot of work in this country out of anger, and that's a really dangerous place to do all of your work from because it'll burn you out so fast. You know, like Adrienne Marie Brown, like, all these people are talking about how to sustain yourself through this work. And I think so much of it has to do with. You can't just organize out of anger. I was trying to explain this to someone, a friend of mine on Facebook who's also a local friend. But, you know, I said, after the election, I said, one of the things I'm hoping we stop doing is turning our neighbors into boogeyman, because. Right. We cannot move forward together if we continue to look at each other and see monsters.

I would interject that outside of family and friends, that neighbors are the people that we need the most.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And it didn't surprise me to get pushback on that, but it made me sad that the pushback was. But these people are xyz, and they're like, you know, how dare you tell me how to feel? And he said, holy moly. I didn't tell you how to feel. What I said was, I have been doing this kind of stuff, a community building, organizing for a very long time. And I can tell you when people have come at me with anger, meeting Them with anger has never changed the situation.

Yep.

The only thing that has ever changed the situation was me coming back with something calm. That said, I can see that you are hurting right now. That anger is coming from a genuine place in your life. Even if I disagree with who you're blaming and how you're exhibiting it, I know that that hurt is coming from a real place.

Yeah. So you have some basic conflict management skills that have helped you, it sounds like.

Yeah, I guess I wouldn't even. I didn't even think of them like that. But yeah, it's just the basics, you know, Like, I'm queer, My wife is trans. Like, people hate us all the time.

Yeah.

We've had a lot of practice. People saying terrible things, like, straight to your face. You're like, are you kidding me? Like, I'm a human being standing right here. But the natural instinct is to escalate. Right. Especially when someone comes after my wife, like, my word. You know, it has taken me a lot of years since she came out to realize that it's not my job to fight every single transphobe out there because it's really. It's really tempting.

I can imagine. Especially if you're defending someone else.

Yeah. I mean, if people say bad things to me, I can deal with that. But when you say bad things about someone I love. Totally. Like, no. And it took a lot of learning and training to realize that me escalating was probably going to do more harm to the person I love than good.

That's an interesting way to look at it. Yep.

Yeah. Because, like, sure, I got my rage at the person out, but now they're, you know, now it's really personal.

Yeah.

Nothing good comes from that. It takes a lot of training and experience to be able to have someone saying deeply offensive, personal things and be able to say, you know what? Not right now. Yeah, I'm just not.

Yeah, Yeah. I will say I'm sorry that you've had to go through those sorts of experiences to be able to learn that perspective. But it is a healthy perspective that you take it on. So I guess I commend you for that.

Oh, thanks. It was not a natural takeaway.

Yeah.

You know, I am definitely one of those people who, like, I'll fight tooth and nail for the people I love, but I also recognize that usually people who are coming at me or coming out of concept are coming from the same place. Right. They're defending the people they love or their own way of being in this world. It's all the same basic Emotions and motivations that have just been queered to different places. And I think when we can look at other people and say we can't disagree on everything and it's not. I. I know a lot. A lot of folks that I know think that finding common ground with people who have fundamental, different beliefs in human rights than you is selling out or normalizing their beliefs. And I disagree because I do not think that we can have conversations about what we disagree on unless we have conversations about what we agree on first and can build those norms. I mean, I know so many people who've changed their minds. Maybe that's what it is, is I've been. I've been doing this long enough that I know people who have grown. I know people who have changed their mind. I've changed my mind right so many times. Growth is so possible. Coming to a better understanding about the people we live near, coming to a better understanding about other people's experience is all possible. But I don't think it happens unless we create a common bond of just humanity. Like, I like talking to someone. Just acknowledge. Like, I understand and acknowledge that you are a human with complex experiences and opinions that come from a real place, even if I disagree with them and just treat someone like they are deserving the same basic dignity and respect that any person is. It's hard. It's hard when our emotions are high, when we are angry. Like, it's just hard. You know, I don't blame anyone. I mean, I've certainly done and said things I don't think were the best choice. But that hope, that hope that people can grow is so powerful to me that just because people believe something now, I can't let go of the belief that it's possible for it to change. Because if I give up on the belief that people are capable of growth and change, then I give up on the belief that we can be fundamentally better as a society.

That was actually going to be my next question for you, and you just answered it. What gives you hope enough to keep going?

I think for me, one of the things that keeps me going is that I think people do fundamentally want to help when they can. I raise probably like 10 grand a year for the one good deed fund right now and give it out, you know, which makes sense, I think. I've. In the last. And we just had our 10th anniversary, and I've raised and given out about 125,000.

Wow.

Yeah.

Congratulations.

Thank you. And as the person who does the fundraising and most of the work that was kind of staggering to see that number come up and be like, wow, I just didn't. I never thought that that's what I've been doing. But that's what keeps me going, is knowing that these small things, they add up. That $125,000 went from people who could afford to share, and it went to people and projects that would not otherwise have been funded.

We talked about this a little bit already, but I'm curious to hear what your response would be to this. What would you say makes the work you do the most difficult?

One of the things that really bothers me in the way we do charity in this country, and I think there are tremendous amount of flaws with it, is that going back to the idea that if you need help, there must be something wrong with you.

Yes.

Right. Is that if you need help, you've been so heavily scrutinized and people expect you to just open your wounds in front of them to justify why you should get help. I hate GoFundMe's. I hate them. I hate them because it asks people to put their tragedies and their stories out for anyone to see. I mean, I'm glad they exist. I've used them. But it has created an idea that we are all entitled to life stories for people who need help. No one needs to justify that. They're in a bad spot.

I agree with that. Yeah, right.

And so I hate that we have this culture where it's like, well, why do they need the money? Well, have they tried X? Well, have they tried this and have they tried that? Like, I cannot tell you how frustrating it is to raise money for something. You know, I raised money for a water heater for a senior. I have a friend who runs a senior center who came to me and said, one of your neighbors doesn't have hot water. And I'm like, well, let's fix that. And she's like, can I apply for $250? I was like, no, I'm going to raise the cost of the water heater. We're going to replace this person's water heater. Not you walking by and scraping up money. It's $2,000. I'm just going to raise $2,000, and we're going to pay for the water heater. And she started to cry because she's so used to having to, like, patch together these small amounts of money from people and having to, like, share tragedies in order to help seniors. And I was like, that's bananas. We're not doing that. I'm just gonna raise the money. And I did in a week. And I'm able to do that because I'm totally okay with taking the crap. Like, people are like, well, did you ask this organization for money and buy. And I'm like, yeah, there is no program for this. Or they're like, well, what about a rebate? And I'm like, fun thing about a rebate, you have to have the money to put down first. So there's always a percentage of people that think that they can prove to me that what I'm doing is unnecessary. And I think it's the right. Because I think that they feel like they have to have. I think people are just genuinely afraid to find out that all the backstops they think are there that give them comfort don't exist. Because then they're horrible.

Yes, right.

And so acknowledging how bad things are and how close all of us are to disaster, they just can't cope with it. So when they hear that a senior has been living without hot water and it's going to be December, they can't. They're just like, well, someone must do that. And I'm like, yeah, me. I'm the someone. Welcome. They're like, no, no, no. Like a government program. And I'm like, no, no. You would be shocked to find out how little there is. You would be shocked to find out how people live. And so I can have those conversations. I get annoyed with them. But, like, me being annoyed is far better than someone feeling absolutely crappy and like, they're bad for trying to get help. And I get volunteers who have cold weather camping experience to go out and help people who are living outside for the first time survive the winter. I'm horrified that that has to happen. Not proud of the work I did. Right. Like, getting credit for it feels very strange because that's not the point. It's not the point normally, is it? Not the point. But the idea that other people aren't doing it too, is completely confusing to me.

Yeah, right.

Like, don't praise me. Go and do it too. I don't need your credit. I don't need your thanks. I need you to acknowledge that there's this problem. And you know, like, if you're going to do it by donating, sure, donate to me. I have a lot of people. You know, I've paid back rent, I've helped people fix roofs. I cannot tell you the number of things that I have helped people do that are relatively small. And again, people are just like, wasn't there a program for that. I'm like, maybe. Do you know how long it takes to go through that? Like, it takes me five days, maybe to raise the money, because I can be very discreet in what I'm telling people. They trust me. I, you know, I've. I'm trustworthy, and I've demonstrated that over and over again. And that's the great thing about the One Good Deed Fund is people feel comfortable giving to a nonprofit that has been transparent, and they know me. So I can say, folks, everything is completely off the rails, and we can't fix everything, but there's this one thing that is happening that we can all come together and fix this one damn thing. Right. Like, we can't fix everything, but we can come together and do this one thing right now.

In this moment.

Yes, in this moment. Just right now. And if you don't have the means, don't. Right. This is not me guilt tripping. I'm just saying if you have. If you have some to share. There is this one thing happening right now. We have the ability to go in and fix it. And then people feel part of something and they feel better that they were able to do that, but they don't know the other person. Right. If they were going to do that on their own, they don't have the relationships to do it. Right. They don't know the person who needs, you know, $500 worth of plumbing repairs or else their, you know, their toilet doesn't flush and they can't live.

Right.

They don't need that. Right. The person who needs the plumbing repair doesn't need 30 people knowing their name and the details of their life. They just need help.

Yeah.

So I get to be that buffer in the center that says, people trust me. They trust that I'm doing good things with the money, but then the people I know in the community trust me to come to me to tell me when something's happening, because they know I have their privacy on lockdown. I'm not going to exploit them. And I will only ever share as much of their story as they have. Okayed.

Yeah.

It's that trustworthiness on all sides.

Sorry, I'm just absorbing what you said because it's. I mean, it's true. We shouldn't have to. Is that what I want to say? Prostitute ourselves and our stories?

I know. I was trying to find the word, too. And I was like. Said that. And I was like, is that. But like, we should not have to sell ourselves.

Yeah.

The spectator sport of other people's pain. Has just been amplified. People shouldn't have to do a GoFundMe for a prosthetic limb. Right. Like, just these basic things, like the fact that we are doing private fundraising for healthcare, basic healthcare. The fact that I had to privately fundraise for wound kits because the local medical facility was not going to put them in their budget. I was like, there is no way that that is okay. Right. But the option isn't to say this is wrong for me. I can say this is wrong and I want everyone to know that this is happening while also getting the wound kits out to people, because it's not their fault that the healthcare system is so messed up that they can die of sepsis on the street and people are just like, one less person to support.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, as we wind down here, where can people follow you online if they want to follow you?

The One Good Deed Fund is most prolific on Instagram, so it's instagram.com onegoodfund. The organization's website is onegoodfund.org and while we are on Facebook, I think we post a lot more on Instagram. And more importantly on Instagram, I try to also post other people, local people in Burlington, Vermont, make sure that I'm amplifying other people's volunteer needs and opportunities to give. So I try to do a lot of that as well.

Is there anything I haven't asked that you wanted to talk about?

I think there's just one thing I want people to hear and take away. That there is always hope. Even if you don't see it, Even if you're in that darkest place. Nothing stays the same forever. You know, I think I know a lot of people right now who are feeling extremely hopeless.

Yes.

And I understand. I completely understand. But also, there are so many things happening every day that are beautiful acts of love between people, and you just. You just can't see them. It doesn't mean you're not there. It just means that you're not privy to them. And if we, you know, if you're in those dark places, friends, like, just know that there are things happening that you have no idea are there. Just trust that there are people doing things that would make your heart start beating again. And there's. There's so much. There's so much good out there.

There really is. Yes.

You just don't see it. And I just make. I just want people to know. Yeah, things are messy, things are tough, but there's so much hope.

That's great advice. I just want to say thank you for all the work that you do. I don't know how often you hear people say thank you, but it's not enough. So thank you for doing everything that you do. Like I've said before, I'm proud to know you, and I really mean that. Like, I know you don't necessarily want credit for any of this that you do, but your state of being makes me want to be a better person. Put it that way.

That is one of the nicest things that anyone has ever said to me. Thank you.

And I'm not trying to flatter you or butter you up. I really mean, like, when I sit and think about my own life, I sometimes think, well, what would Laura do? And no, I really mean it. Like, out of all the people I've talked to, it's like, you and there are a few others where I'm just like, what would they do? And you're one of those people. So I just really appreciate it.

That's. That is truly one of the most. The highest compliments that I could ask for. And I say, I don't need credit. I think what I mean is that I don't want to be exceptional. That's.

That's fair. That's fair.

Yeah. I don't want to be exceptional. I want other people to do this, too. I don't want to be held up as an example of someone who is extraordinary, because I want this to be everyone. I want everyone to be like, I can do one thing right. Like, you don't have to start a foundation. I'm not saying anyone. I don't recommend anyone else start a foundation. My word. You know, if I knew. I knew that, I wouldn't have started it. But I want people to see what I do and say, oh, yeah, I can do that. I did one thing right. That's what I want people to do. So hearing that, that's what you've taken away from this is exactly what I hope for.

Great. I'm glad to hear that.

Yeah. That's it. I just want someone to think, what can I do in this situation that makes someone else's life a little bit better and doesn't make me burn up my own? Right. That two competing things of I have the power to help other people while also recognizing that I cannot light myself on fire doing it.

Yes.

And that's just what I want for all of us. I think we'll all be better people and society be a better place if we all just looked at each other and said, we have common humanity. We can do better than this. We can do it together.

This is the plural view. I'm Josh Morgan, and the show's website is pluralview.org that's all for now. Thank you for being kind today. Take care.